Cascade Crew

DBL_TKE · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: Stereo advice

So I just put in an Alpine CDE-9852 head unit in the Camaro since I had it just lying around, I'm assuming the car still has stock speakers which I'll be replacing soon with 2 4x6 Alpine SPS-4629P in the dash and 2 6x9 Alpine SPS-6939S in the sail panels. I also have a custom sealed sub box for the rear cargo well. I don't know the volume though. I also just picked up 2 10" Kicker Comp VR's that I'm going to use. The amp I got from Al awhile ago is a Pioneer GM-X252 with an 8g power wire.

I really don't know much about car stereo's and how to match them well. I'm afraid that this amp isn't enough for these subs and I'm starting to think I need a bigger gauge power wire, can anyone give any input on what will work well or how I should wire it?

jchaussee · Member Joined: 14 Nov 2010 Posts: 1318 Location: renton

I don't know enough about car stereos to give you professional advice, but you probably want to run two amps anyways, so if you don't think that the one you have is good enough for your subs, then use it for your front four speakers. Then get a different amp for your subs.

Al Hasse · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject:

Those are Kicker subs, not Pioneer. What variety did you get, single/dual voice coil, 2 or 4 ohm? It makes a difference as to what amp you can or can't use. I found some specs for them and they can handle quite a bit 800WMAX each and 400WRMS (continuous) each. You are correct that the amp you have is not enough (200WRMS X @ at 4 ohms), it might give them half of what they're capable of.

At a power handling capability of 800WRMS and 1600WMAX, you could easily use an amp that puts out 1000 to 1200WRMS and not hurt those woofers. With that power though, you'll need at least 4 AWG power wire.

If you prefer to use one amp for the whole system, I might suggest the Hybrid that Memphis makes, it's the same as the Belle that I have in my 92. It's a Class A/B amp for the 4 speakers putting out 75WRMS X 4 @ 4 ohms or 115WRMS X 4 @ 2 ohm, and a Class D sub channel that puts out 1100WRMS X 1 @ 1 ohm. It's a BIG amplifier though.

http://www.memphiscaraudio.com/products/amplifiers/memphis-hybrid-mclass-amplifier/

DBL_TKE · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:45 pm Post subject:

They are dual voice coil, 2ohm. I was planning on just running the speakers off the headunit unless the sound quality doesn't meet my expectations. So would it even be safe for me to use this amp and power wire for the time being while I shop around or will these subs burn them up? Or will they just not perform up to their potential? I'd hate to damage anything. That's a pretty nice amp, I'll consider that if I decide to power my speakers too.

Al Hasse · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject:

You should be fine as long as you don't overdrive the amp to clipping. It's not the underpowering of the subs that really hurts them, it's the flat spot at the top and bottom of the signal that hurts them, it's like putting a DC signal to the speaker and it burns out the voice coil.

I'm in the same boat with the 8" eXcelon subs I have in my 89, the amp delivers about half of what they're capable of handling.

BluFbdy · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject:

Well i can tell you right now youre gonna be wanting a better amp, pioneer has never really been up to par with the amps and those kickers can take a beating, btw kickers DO have a break in period so when this whole thing gets done dont beat the tar out of them for a week or so.

Take a look at the kicker specs, look for the RMS rating of the subs, multiply it by 2 and that is the number youre looking for an amp to put out roughly. Now look at your pioneer amp, youre gonna be looking for true rms output here, add up the fuses (say you have 2 25 amps) multiply the fuse total by 14.4 (battery voltage) then divide that number by 2 (since there is almost no such thing as a 100% efficient amplifier) the resulting number is the maximum RMS that amp will EVER achieve. so with the example numbers 25+25=50 X 14.4 = 720 / 2 = 360, make sense? Normally i try to get an amp matched to subs as close as possible, if its too low you wont get the full potential of the sub, if its too high and the subs arent gonna take it youre ass out 2 subs lol find a happy medium and youre golden.

As far as the wiring goes id switch out that 8 for some 4 gauge, like a dual amp kit for future expansion (4 channel) if that wiring isnt up for the load of the comp vr's itll just burn up and that smell never goes away lol plus if you swap to 4 you have soooo many more options as far as sub and amp choices go down the road.

The stock speakers sound alright on the head unit if theyre in good shape, if you go aftermarket youll most likely want to run a 4channel amp to them and dynamatt is your best friend! My rears rattled like no other until i dynamatted them. Being that dynamat is pricey id go to hifisoundconnection.com and look into accumat, same stuff different brand.

With amp selection its your choice, take a feature you want and look around if you want excellent output and small size look into JL audio, they have miniaturized their amps with the same output (sticker shock on them is a bitch tho) if youre just looking for a certain rms then find an amp that has that number regardless of size etc, just a warning, 90% of manufacturers do not true rate their products, the only exceptions to this that i personally know of are JL Audio, Rockrod Fosgate, and Alpine, use the equation listed above to really figure out rms output.

Also take into consideration how you want to wire up your subs, that will help with amp selection, if i were you i would wire the whole setup down to 2 ohms and then make sure whatever amp you choose is atleast 2 ohm stable make sure to check the ohm load before hooking it all up, with those subs you can either go to half an ohm or to 2, and hooking half an ohm setup to that pioneer would NOT be pretty.

DBL_TKE · Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject:

Some very good advice here. Thanks guys. I'm still shopping for amps but in the meantime I installed the 6x9's. They lasted a day before they started cutting out more and more until I have no sound from my stereo at all.

Al Hasse · Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject:

Hey Skyler, I still have a set of 3-way Pioneer 6X9 speakers from my 89 when I installed the woofers in the sails. They are a set of TS-A6971R advertized at 300W max and 40W nominal (I take that as RMS). You're welcome to them.

RSFreak · Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject:

Wow, I didn't even know there was a 1 ohm stable amp! That kind of resistance would fry most amps! Shocked

Al Hasse · Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:31 pm Post subject:

1 ohm stable amps have been out for quite a while. Some of them can even go as low as 1/2 ohm for short periods. That's almost like putting a dead short through the amp Shocked

Dewey316 · Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:33 pm Post subject:

BluFbdy · Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject:

I will never go below.5ohms lol that's asking for trouble, go to any car toys in the 3rd room, aka the boom room and look at the amps on the wall all but one of ours in there are 1 ohm stable and a handful of them go down to. 5ohms

DBL_TKE · Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:01 pm Post subject:

Hey Al, if we meet up I may take you up on those 6x9's. I have an issue here though. As previously stated I installed my new speakers in the sail panels. I did not install the new speakers in the dash due to fitment issues so even after putting new connectors on the wires I had to revert back to the stock dash speakers. Unfortunately I'm starting to think that I got the polarity mixed up on the dash speakers. The terminals look identical and I could hear no noticeable different when testing out which was positive and negative. If i disconnect both of the rear speakers from the headunit pigtail I can get sound out of the dash speakers, as soon as I reconnect the sail panel speakers I loose all sound. I don't understand what can cause this? Do these speakers pull too much power for the head unit to support alone?

Al Hasse · Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject:

Reverse polarity shouldn't cause a total sound loss. Normally, it happens from right to left if one is reversed, then you'll get a muddy, muffled sound. Maybe if both rears are reverse polarity of the front, they can totally cancel out, but I've not heard of that happening. You can check polarity with a 9V battery, touch the terminals to the bare ends of the speaker wire if you can access it, the speaker cone should push out if the polarity is correct. If reversed, the cone will pull itself in.

EDIT: I just reread this and it sounds like you may have a short on one of your speaker wires. Sail speakers can be notorious for shorting the terminals against the body. Can be checked with a multimeter, at the radio connector (disconnected), speaker to ground should read open on both wires.

DBL_TKE · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject:

So I came across an opportunity to pick up a decent amp for a good deal. It's an Alpine PDX 1.600 rated at 600rpms @ 2 or 4 ohms. Will this thing be a good match for my subs?

DBL_TKE · Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:20 pm Post subject:

Alright, so I ended up getting that Alpine PDX 1.600 amp. From what I've researched it's a pretty good amp. It's a class D mono amp rated at 600RMS. I now have 4 gauge power and ground wires although the fuse holder that I have accepts AGU style fuses and apparently they're pretty hard to find in high AMP ratings. The highest I could find was 80amps, originally this Streetwire amp kit used a 150amp fuse. Any thoughts on whether I'll just keep blowing fuses? The amplifier uses 4 20 amp fuses.

Other than that I wired my subs in series and bridged the voice coils on each sub in order to stay at 2 ohms. I followed this diagram...

http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/ca/learningcenter/car/subwoofer_wiring/2DVC_2-ohm_mono.jpg

I just need to wire up the ground wire, securely mount the amp and run the remote wire then I should be good to go, assuming I can get away with an 80amp fuse for the power wire.

aaron_sK · Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:25 pm Post subject:

4ga wire should not be carrying 150amps. That's crazy town.

Al Hasse · Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject:

Since the amplifier is fuse with a total of 80 amps (factory I assume), I see no issues with using an 8o amp fuse at the battery.

Sonic Electronics carries 100amp AGU fuses which was the highest I was able to find.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_39056_Xscorpion-AGU100PL.html

As for wire gauge, I think that Streetwire over-fused that kit. 4-gauge wire is OK for 150 amps for up to 20 feet (including the return ground), I'd feel safer using 2-gauge. Anything longer and 2-gauge would be required. There's a nice chart on this site to calculate what you may need for wire size.

http://www.offroaders.com/tech/12-volt-wire-gauge-amps.htm

DBL_TKE · Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:12 am Post subject:

I think I measured my power wire to be 15' and my ground wire to be 3'. So a total of 18'. So it seems that I'm well in the clear running 4AWG wire, besides, the terminals on my amp only accept down to 4AWG which is what Alpine recommends too. I also calculated my current draw.. (600x1)2/13.8 ..and it came out to be 87 amps, but can be up to 100amps if my voltage drops down to 12 volts. I'll stick with this 80amp fuse until I find a reason not to.

Anyway, I was able to finish running the wiring and hooking everything up and I got the interior all put back together last night. These subs are awesome! I got these subs used so I don't think I need to break them in. It seems that the lower the bass, the better these sound. The higher pitched bass notes don't sound quite as good but I still need to figure out settings for the subs. It's possible that I may just be hearing interior/exterior vibrations, those should be fun chasing down. Rolling Eyes

I missed having a decent stereo in a car. The '85 had a pair of mediocre subs but the amp eventually blew, I ended up taking the stereo out of that car. My GTI had the factory radio delete option. So I wanted to do something nice in this car.

Next up: installing the dash and sail panel speakers. The sail panels will be a breeze, but I remember I had clearance issues when I test fitted the dash speakers. Is there anywhere that I can buy some spacers? Everyone I've talked to says they only come with the speakers and aren't available separately.

DBL_TKE · Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject:

Stupid me, I never checked what the settings were at on the amp, apparently the gain was cranked all the way up, so I was in fact hearing distortion. Good thug I never really cranked the volume. I turned the gain down to 3 or 4 and the subs sound even better now.