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You know, I never started a project thread
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was a little slower than I had hoped but then again it isn't a race tune and I can still tow whatever I want. I'd rather be reliable than broken!
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the autopsy report....

The remains of my belts. There must be more at the track somewhere. This was wrapped tight around the shaft of most pulleys and took over an hour to cut out. It damaged some wiring for my AC compressor too. Much of it was wound TIGHTLY around the AC compressor.



There is a chip in the wall of the power steering pulley. The wall is there to keep the belt from walking out of the groove. Not sure if the chip nicked the belt and then the belt unraveled, or if the tensioner let the belt loosen at high rpm. Either way, I have discovered the LS1 power steering pulleys are plastic! Really low inertia but feels like a piece of junk.



Fortunately my radiator was not damaged. The force of the belt was so high that there was a piece of belt stuck under the radiator hose clamp at the water pump. It was wedged in so tight that I couldn't pull it out with pliers and had to undo the clamp.

I see that Katech sells a different tensioner for high rpm applications. I also want to switch to a metal P/S pulley but I'm having trouble finding one for LS1 F-body with 0.75 inch shaft. Seems all the good pulleys out there are for Corvette LS2/LS3 with 0.66 inch shaft. If any of you guys know of a good pulley let me know, please.
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I found a p/s pulley from Turn One.

I see the Katech tensioner is manual type. I suppose that will work as long as I remember to do maintenance during belt break in. I think that takes only a few hours or driving but I'll ask my Dayco engineer on Monday.
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Alphius
Peanut


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 2429
Location: Grand Mound

1984 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no way I'd ever run a manual tensioner on a serpentine belt. Your actual belt tension will vary wildly as RPM and accessory load changes; no bueno.
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84 Camaro Z28 - LS1/T56
85 Silverado - Low and Slow
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aaron_sK
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon I know that you blow off what I post as me flipping you shizzle, so instead of giving advice I'll simply suggest an engineering experiment.

Open the hood of any car with a serpentine belt. Doesn't matter what car; your pickup, your wife's car, whatever.

Have a helper start the engine and, while you watch the belt tensioner with a flashlight, have your helper goose the throttle.

That should save you some embarrassment in front of your Dayco man.
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aaron_sK wrote:
Jon I know that you blow off what I post as me flipping you shizzle


No, I don't. You helped me get my car built more than any other single person I can think of. Maybe I just never told you that.
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is kind of embarrassing but I'll post it anyway. Laughing

Obviously not a drag racing regular and quite rusty. I was watching the tire smoke in my mirror and went right past the staging lights without knowing it.... then they had to yell at me again for not having my window rolled up.... then I was sleeping on the line.... then I spun my tires badly with a 2.5 second 60' time.... then I missed third gear and had to double clutch (which is the first time I've ever missed a gear in that car). Somehow I managed a 12.7 @ 118 anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp_2BIXe-Ns
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aaron_sK wrote:
Have a helper start the engine and, while you watch the belt tensioner with a flashlight, have your helper goose the throttle.

That should save you some embarrassment in front of your Dayco man.


The pulley isn't moving because the belt is stretching. Revving the engine changes drive torque which also changes belt tension and hub load on the pulley. The hub load determines how far the pulley will move (because of the tensioning spring). The amount of stretch of a belt during normal operation is very small by comparison.

I'm not worried about belt stretch, I'm more concerned if the multi-rib belt construction can take the shock loads when the auto tensioner is removed from the system.

Embarrassing to not know something? Almost never. Asking questions is the process to learning. And being able to talk first-hand with an expert usually brings out things that I didn't even know to ask. Besides that I've know the guy for 15 years and it is a chance to say hi. Wink
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Alphius
Peanut


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 2429
Location: Grand Mound

1984 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're exactly right, but neither of us were talking about belt stretch.

As accessory demand or RPM increase and decrease, the tensioner needs to be able to move to keep the proper tension on the belt. With a manual tensioner, you'll have wildly varying belt tension and side loads on the accessory bearings and crank pulley. The auto tensioner guarantees a proper, even tension on all pulleys regardless of accessory demand or RPM.

Tensioner deflection when you rev an engine or when the A/C compressor turns on isn't due to belt stretch.

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84 Camaro Z28 - LS1/T56
85 Silverado - Low and Slow
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be sure to ask about that too.

I've had a lot of belt life and hub load studies done for me so I already know enough to tell you the auto tensioner is not as ideal as you think. And there isn't one good answer either, it is a balancing act between belt slip and bearing life.

An alternative I am looking at is the LS2/LS3 tensioner. Apparently the LS1 is known for throwing belts, so the later engines had a pulley with more rim height.
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aaron_sK
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QwkTrip wrote:
Somehow I managed a 12.7 @ 118 anyway.


That's good enough for a title around here.

An impressive run despite your jitters. The car pulled really well after you got it in the right gear.

Re: belt throw: my gut feeling is that the chip was the initial cause of the problem, and not a result of the throw. Personally I would replace the pulley and put a few more passes on the car. If it continues to throw an underdrive pulley would be the best fix IMO.
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izcain
9sec Club


Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 1306
Location: Port Angeles WA

1983 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats on the run! I see that I am not the only one having third gen belt troubles lol
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1983 Z28 383 + 201ci more = New Heart for this season!
9.17 @ 148
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aaron_sK wrote:
That's good enough for a title around here.


That reminds me.... Hey, Dewey, how do I get one of those 11 second club thingies in my avatar from last year?

aaron_sK wrote:
Re: belt throw: my gut feeling is that the chip was the initial cause of the problem, and not a result of the throw.


Yep, sure could be. I am ordering a metal pulley tomorrow no matter what else I may do or not do.
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Dewey316
The Lama


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 7295
Location: Bringing the tech

1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

QwkTrip wrote:
That reminds me.... Hey, Dewey, how do I get one of those 11 second club thingies in my avatar from last year?


Ummm.. you have had it since last year. Look at your avatar dude.
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I swear up and down it said 'member' yesterday. Thank, though. Smile
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I confirmed that the manual belt tensioner will be fine and I ordered one. Apparently the Japanese use manual belt tensioners a lot with their automobiles. After about 24 hours the belt will mostly relax and I can set belt tension nearly for good. It will relax a bit more over the life of the belt but nothing that should require that I check it frequently (the anticipated stretch is accounted for with the tension set point). I will have to run the belt a little tighter than without an auto tensioner, but I have access to a worksheet to calculate proper tension and a frequency gage to measure the actual belt tension installed.

I thought about LS2 tensioner but people running that also throw belts, just not as regularly. They tend to "solve" the problem by using a shorter belt and running the tensioner up near the install stop. This is a bad situation because the casting can (and will) break if the tensioner slams against the stops during use. I'd rather just install the manual tensioner and be done with all the hassle. P/S pulley is on order too. The Turn One pulley is made for 0.75" shaft so it should be good to go.

This little project has turned out pretty expensive. I still need to assess damage to AC compressor (which was brand new).
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Car is back together (except AC wiring that was damage) and seemed to drive fine. I'll keep an eye on coolant level because I don't know how else to know if the engine was damaged from being over heated (?)

I swapped out the rear springs from 175 lb/in down to 150 lb/in and the ride quality improved quite a bit! Not nearly as jittery over bumps. Gives me some hope that the Koni struts will fix the front and I'll have a car that is more enjoyable to drive. Running the rear a little lower now and it is amazing how such a little change of ride height makes the car look more badass. Cool
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Schultzy89GTA
M.R.A. (11sec Club)


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 4415
Location: Gresham, OR

1989 Pontiac GTA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QwkTrip wrote:
I swear up and down it said 'member' yesterday. Thank, though. Smile



hahaha It wasn't there the other night. I added it.

-Schultzy
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an oil leak that put a small spot on the floor last winter. The oil is seeping out of the flywheel housing. There's been no oil spill on the garage floor over the last week but I had to fill oil before the drag races and I just had to fill oil again tonight. Basically, I have added more than a quart over the last week.

I have video from the drag strip last week showing the car burns clean so at this point I am assuming my loss of oil is a bonafide leak. I think I'll drill a hole in the flywheel housing and see what drains out. I really don't want to miss out on any more driving this summer but I suppose problems never pop up unless you're driving. I'm hoping this is just a fluke and the oil level stabilizes... at least for the summer so I can keep driving for now.
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Dewey316
The Lama


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 7295
Location: Bringing the tech

1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is going into the flywheel housing, i would guess there is only one suspect, and you aren't going to like it. Rear Main.
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