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You know, I never started a project thread
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cage is coming along well and it will be NHRA compliant as long as I run the seat all the way back during tech inspection. Wink Plates are welded in and we're going to have a removable side bar that meets requirements, but also have the permanent side bar low down by the seat cushion. That way I can leave the high side bar out most the time but still have the rigidity of a 6 point when I'm not using it. All that welding sure makes the car dirty so I'll have a lot of wiping and cleaning to do when the car comes home before assembling the interior again. We are going to have to cut the side panels down by the rear seat cushion. There's just no way around that because of where we want to place the main hoop.

They probably started install of the subframe connectors today and reworking the torque arm mount for ground clearance. I have been looking at stock spring rates and I'm really surprised to see how light most the stock V8 spring were. I literally have over 2x the spring rate of many stock V8 cars. No wonder I have no weight transfer! I am going to take some measurements when the car comes back home and order up a stock front spring that will get me as close to ride height I have now but give me some hook off the line. According to my data logs the car already does a 0-60 mph in the low 3 second range despite my sucky 60' time. It's going to be a nasty street car if I can get this thing to hook up decent.
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Dewey316
The Lama


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 7295
Location: Bringing the tech

1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to dig back and look at the thread to find spring rates.

I saw you started at 800 front / 200 rear (I run 900 / 225)

Then saw you went to a 175 rear.

Honestly, you aren't THAT far off of stock. The IROC cars had somethink like 760# front from the factory. The rears are stiffer, but that isn't your issue I don't think, going a little softer in back should not effect it that much, since the geometry shouldn't squat the car that much. I would guess if we were to ask IZ, he is probably much stiffer in the rear than you, a little softer in the front, but running very different front struts.

IIRC, you ended up going with Koni dampers? If so, they have very aggressive rebound dampening (which is what you want for cornering), what you want for weight transfer, is lower rebound dampening to allow the front to lift on the springs instead of the damper slowing down the spring uncompromising.

I honestly think, geometry and front struts are your issue, much less so than spring rates.
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocks definitely can be used to control rate of travel and help the car launch, but it can't change the fact that my springs allow almost no travel. I need a lower spring rate if I want more travel. And I need different shocks if I want to achieve full travel early in the launch.

I'm never going to optimize this for straight line because I don't want a poor handling drag suspension. But right now I have an abusive suspension so the happy point is somewhere in between - and I think a better 60' time will be achieved at the same time.

I have Bilstien front struts. I recently learned those struts don't have much compression travel so it might be much of the cause of the ride harshness that I am experiencing. I'm going to check the bump limits after the car comes home from the shop. I was told I can cut a couple inches off the bumps. The other alternative is to change struts.

There are a bunch of different stock springs but they tend to be grouped around 350 lb/inch, 425 lb/inch, and there are some less common 700 and 750. These are all V8 cars. Moroso Trick Springs are about 220 lb/inch by comparison. My Hotchkis springs are about 600 lb/inch and I can probably use those to see if my ideas are directionally correct. I've just never used the Hotchkis springs because of ground clearance problems.
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got some good news.... The shop got me ALL my ground clearance back. This was done by making me a custom torque arm that is almost as long as stock (but not quite). Both the torque arm and trans crossmember are tied into the inner subframe connectors now.

I should have my car back next week. I haven't seen the cage installed yet but they did really good work under the car so I'm expecting the cage to turn out real nice too.
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izcain
9sec Club


Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 1306
Location: Port Angeles WA

1983 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome! Can't wait to see the work!

Does the torque arm have adjustments or is it fixed?

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1983 Z28 383 + 201ci more = New Heart for this season!
9.17 @ 148
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Torque arm has adjustable pinion angle and adjustable height at the front. Same basic design as before only longer. We reused the bracket at the axle from the UMI piece (because it was nice) and made a new ladder type arm to the front.
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izcain
9sec Club


Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 1306
Location: Port Angeles WA

1983 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool man, I would love to see pics when you get a chance.
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1983 Z28 383 + 201ci more = New Heart for this season!
9.17 @ 148
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got a little problem. Well, kind of a big problem. Went to look at the cage as it was getting finished and first thing I thought was, Oh Crap! The hoop is too short! Sat in the car and my head was a bit taller. Not happy about this and trying to talk to the shop about it. Things like this are a total redo and I think they are tired of working on the car so we'll see where this goes.

All the underside work is done.
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Dewey316
The Lama


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 7295
Location: Bringing the tech

1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is the hard part about fitting a cage. Getting the hoop set high and right as not an easy task. If you trim it enough to fit it in the car and set it on the pads normally, it will sit low. What you really have to do, is get it in the car, then build the pads to sit in a place that the hoop is tucked up to the roof, but that takes effort and fabrication.
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really good news to share.... The shop owner went back and fixed the hoop without me even asking and THE CAGE IS AWESOME!!! He did an outstanding job! And he talked to an NHRA tech and made sure everything is good to go.

I have the car back temporarily until next week when the cage will be painted. I'll post some pictures soon with everything in the raw. All I can say is after 6 weeks it was really enjoyable to drive the car tonight and make some noise and spin tires. I drove like an obnoxious ass on the way home from the shop and it was gobs of fun! Cool
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roll cage pictures...

I was so excited to take the car home that I forgot there was plastic on the seats!





The upper side bar is to meet track regulations and is removable for every day use. The lower bar is permanent and gives me the 6 point rigidity without the hassle.



We used the nice billet stubs for the swing outs so it didn't protrude forward to make contact with my arm.



Nice tuck of the upper bar around the door panel. It actually makes for a comfortable arm rest when in use.



Last edited by QwkTrip on Tue May 30, 2017 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might also notice those photos look to be different proportions than my older photos. That is because today I entered the modern age and got a smart phone for the first time. I figured Aaron would appreciate that the most since he is the one that noticed the old phone with belt clip last year.
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some 'build in process' pictures of the torque arm. We reused the UMI axle side bracket and made a new arm that is longer. This mates up to a new front mount tied into the inner subframe connectors. You will see where the front is located when I get pictures installed on the car.





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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the trans crossmember...

The crossmember bolts to mounting provisions that are welded to the Alston subframe connectors. It is really compact compared to the Hawks crossmember that was in there before. The inner subframe connectors took the real estate where part of the Hawks crossmember used to sit and it was easier to fabricate a new crossmember then to try to make the old one work.



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aaron_sK
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Torque arm looks good, that trans crossmember is interesting.


QwkTrip wrote:
I figured Aaron would appreciate that the most since he is the one that noticed the old phone with belt clip last year.


I loled.
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I had any dignity I certainly lost it tonight. I hadn't removed the swing out bar yet because I wanted the guys at work to see it. I stop at a gas station on the way home tonight and rumble in and park across from a couple guys on motorcycles. Everyone is trying to not pay attention but the car is hard to ignore. I open the door, struggle to pull the pin from the bar, and push on the bar.... and push..... and bump.... and push and strain.... and bounce my body against it.... and slam my body against it.... over and over again. It ain't movin', man. The chassis settled a bit and that thing was stuck. I think to myself, okay I'll just climb out the hard way this one time. I swing my leg over the bar and try to pull myself out and I can't get out.

So here those guys are looking at a fat guy stuck in his car with his leg over the bar and body crunched up trying to fit between the bar and the roof. The reality of the situation becomes apparent to me and I ask one of the guys if he can pull the bar open. "Sure", he says. He comes over and pulls on it.... and tugs.... and pulls harder.... and I'm telling him, I did that, put some real muscle in it please... Now he's pulling so hard the car is rocking and FINALLY! the thing opens up and I can gas up my car!

Oh, and the bar was removed when I got home tonight!
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My trip to the drag strip was worthless. First run I spun on the line and missed 3rd gear. Then the belts shredded and the car overheated in the staging line before I knew what happened. Didn't notice the belt gone until I tried to turn the wheel and felt no power steering. That's when I looked at the gages and saw the temp needle pegged. Spill tank was full nearly to the top and the belts were spaghetti and wrapped around every pulley. I'll be spending part of today digging out all the belt shreds. I partly salvaged the drag night by running my truck instead.

I'm not sure why the belts shredded and this is concerning. I don't want it to happen again and wondering if there is something inherently not good about F-body LS1 FEAD at high rpm. I'm hoping there is a a different FEAD style that doesn't have the tensioner mounted to the water pump because that particular set up is a bit flimsy.
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Alphius
Peanut


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 2429
Location: Grand Mound

1984 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't leave us in suspense, what did the truck run?
My LS1 FEAD has been bulletproof, but I'm only spinning to 6500.

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84 Camaro Z28 - LS1/T56
85 Silverado - Low and Slow
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QwkTrip
11sec Club


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 3942
Location: Peoria, IL

1989 Pontiac Firebird

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It ran 14.5 and was probably around 6500 - 6600 pounds at the time.
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aaron_sK
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QwkTrip wrote:
It ran 14.5 and was probably around 6500 - 6600 pounds at the time.


That would put you around 420 horse. Not too bad. Cool
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