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Twilightoptics
Hardcore (12sec Club)
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 9191
Location: Auburn , WA
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z
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 Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| laegion wrote: | | alloy wrote: | Yes have an "05" in it 
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you should still get good gains from head and cam swap even before you swap on better intake components.
It makes sense to me to do it the way you're thinking.
supercharger means chip tuning too.. don't forget that. |
The kits usually come with a Fuel Management Unit, no chip tuning. |
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Glenn91L98GTA
Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 25
Location: Kamloops, BC Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| alloy wrote: | Ok, but with all those new parts, there really won't be much of a gain without chip tuning will there?
If I can plan this around a trip of Glenns down here then it might be doable if it can happen in one or two days at most with weeks of prior notice. But to put all that money in the car for parts and not have any improvment for all the work and money would not be smart. So that's why I'm asking all these dumb questions now of you and everyone else here. I want to have a complete plan and budget before starting.
Which heads are better than the stock vortecs? |
There are a lot of heads better than vortecs, the problem is the intakes. I know a LOT of people like the TPI like intakes, but I've also seen the TPI intakes (with a variety of head and cam combos) do dyno runs and frankly, I am not impressed with their power. Great if you want a truck (iin fact that is what I plan to do with my old TPI intake - buy a 90s Chev truck and convert it to SD TPI).
But if you want power, you need an aftermarket intake - Miniram, HSR and Superram all make good power. I personally like the Miniram, but it's pricey. The HSR is a great bang for the buck and I've seen GREAT POWER with an HSR intake.
There were two guys I tuned their engines on a dyno, both using ZZ4 engines as their base. One had a TPI with a TPIS ZZ-X cam. The other was the stock ZZ4 with a Holley Stealth Ram.
The TPI with the TPIS ZZ-X cam was a complete mis-match and I told the guy even before I tuned his chip. The TPI and the cam completely conflicted with each other. I can't find the dyno sheet on this, but I recall that it loss low-end TQ but really didn't make appreciable power over a stock L98.
However, the stock ZZ4 combo with a HSR really surprised. The HSR makes low TQ (more at lower RPMs than a stock L98) - 325 RWTQ @ 2000 rpm was peak. It then fell to 300 RWTQ by 2500 rpm and then remained there all the way to 5,000 rpm - as flat as Nebraska. Then, the TQ slowly fell off to around 260 RWTQ @ 5,700 rpm. THIS is the the type of TQ curve a person REALLY wants. You can rev it as high as your want, and then shift....and the 700R4/4L60 isn't a drawback with it's wide ratios due to the flat TQ curve.
You don't want the "peaky" TQ from 2500 to 3500 rpm, and then rapidly dropping off...you end up having to shift at low rpms because you don't want to over rev and fall off peak HP, and end up past the max TQ point.
BTW, the HSR combo made max power at 5,700 RPM. 275 RWHP. That would equate somewhere between 340-350 BHP, it's power rating by GM with a carb. And, the engine would have made more power as the HP had not yet flattened. The reason we only had readings to 5,700 rpm is because the owner didn't want to rev his engine beyond 5,700 rpm. I personally think there was a bit more left...but it's not my motor, so I can't blame the guy for wanting to shut it down.
My point, TPI on a good head/cam combo is a waste of a good cam/head combo. Frankly, I thought it was even worst than a stock L98. The guy who had WAY less cam but a better intake (and a HSR is not the best intake in my opinion, but I do like it) made a lot more power with a far superior power band in my opinion. Dumping TPI should be one of your first mods. AT LEAST put a HSR on it if you are short on cash. You can always resell it and get a better intake later. |
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Twilightoptics
Hardcore (12sec Club)
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 9191
Location: Auburn , WA
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn91L98GTA wrote: |
However, the stock ZZ4 combo with a HSR really surprised. The HSR makes low TQ (more at lower RPMs than a stock L98) - 325 RWTQ @ 2000 rpm was peak. It then fell to 300 RWTQ by 2500 rpm and then remained there all the way to 5,000 rpm - as flat as Nebraska. Then, the TQ slowly fell off to around 260 RWTQ @ 5,700 rpm. THIS is the the type of TQ curve a person REALLY wants. You can rev it as high as your want, and then shift....and the 700R4/4L60 isn't a drawback with it's wide ratios due to the flat TQ curve. |
Was this an automatic that you aren't taking into account the torque multiplication? HSR does not make more torque on a 350, than an l98. |
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Dewey316
The Lama
Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 7295
Location: Bringing the tech
1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Paul, that would depend on the rest of the combo, the ZZ4 cam is an interesting grind, and I would not be suprised if the HSR made l98 like torque with it.
The TPI runners are tuned for about 3k rpm, that is where you will see the large torque spike from the TPI setup. |
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Twilightoptics
Hardcore (12sec Club)
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 9191
Location: Auburn , WA
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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He stated it dropped 25 tq by 2500rpm.... That's exactly what both my 305 TPI and 350/262/hsr combo did... right after the flash stall, torque dropped a good 25-30 in 500 rpm.
The problem remains, the HSR is not made for torque, in all actuality it doesn't have THAT long a runners. The TRUE tunnel ram makes torque because the runners are ALmost twice as long. |
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laegion
Member
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn91L98GTA wrote: | | alloy wrote: | Ok, but with all those new parts, there really won't be much of a gain without chip tuning will there?
If I can plan this around a trip of Glenns down here then it might be doable if it can happen in one or two days at most with weeks of prior notice. But to put all that money in the car for parts and not have any improvment for all the work and money would not be smart. So that's why I'm asking all these dumb questions now of you and everyone else here. I want to have a complete plan and budget before starting.
Which heads are better than the stock vortecs? |
There are a lot of heads better than vortecs, the problem is the intakes. I know a LOT of people like the TPI like intakes, but I've also seen the TPI intakes (with a variety of head and cam combos) do dyno runs and frankly, I am not impressed with their power. Great if you want a truck (iin fact that is what I plan to do with my old TPI intake - buy a 90s Chev truck and convert it to SD TPI).
But if you want power, you need an aftermarket intake - Miniram, HSR and Superram all make good power. I personally like the Miniram, but it's pricey. The HSR is a great bang for the buck and I've seen GREAT POWER with an HSR intake.
There were two guys I tuned their engines on a dyno, both using ZZ4 engines as their base. One had a TPI with a TPIS ZZ-X cam. The other was the stock ZZ4 with a Holley Stealth Ram.
The TPI with the TPIS ZZ-X cam was a complete mis-match and I told the guy even before I tuned his chip. The TPI and the cam completely conflicted with each other. I can't find the dyno sheet on this, but I recall that it loss low-end TQ but really didn't make appreciable power over a stock L98.
However, the stock ZZ4 combo with a HSR really surprised. The HSR makes low TQ (more at lower RPMs than a stock L98) - 325 RWTQ @ 2000 rpm was peak. It then fell to 300 RWTQ by 2500 rpm and then remained there all the way to 5,000 rpm - as flat as Nebraska. Then, the TQ slowly fell off to around 260 RWTQ @ 5,700 rpm. THIS is the the type of TQ curve a person REALLY wants. You can rev it as high as your want, and then shift....and the 700R4/4L60 isn't a drawback with it's wide ratios due to the flat TQ curve.
You don't want the "peaky" TQ from 2500 to 3500 rpm, and then rapidly dropping off...you end up having to shift at low rpms because you don't want to over rev and fall off peak HP, and end up past the max TQ point.
BTW, the HSR combo made max power at 5,700 RPM. 275 RWHP. That would equate somewhere between 340-350 BHP, it's power rating by GM with a carb. And, the engine would have made more power as the HP had not yet flattened. The reason we only had readings to 5,700 rpm is because the owner didn't want to rev his engine beyond 5,700 rpm. I personally think there was a bit more left...but it's not my motor, so I can't blame the guy for wanting to shut it down.
My point, TPI on a good head/cam combo is a waste of a good cam/head combo. Frankly, I thought it was even worst than a stock L98. The guy who had WAY less cam but a better intake (and a HSR is not the best intake in my opinion, but I do like it) made a lot more power with a far superior power band in my opinion. Dumping TPI should be one of your first mods. AT LEAST put a HSR on it if you are short on cash. You can always resell it and get a better intake later. |
the only thing about that is that alloy has a 305 not a 350. so it will be totally different. with less cubes he won't need as much airflow at the same rpm as the 350. so he should be able to mod his 305 alot more than you would a 350 before swapping the intake is necessary.
_________________
95 vw jetta gl
currently looking for a cheap ninja 250 or 500 or comperable 2cyl sportbike. |
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Twilightoptics
Hardcore (12sec Club)
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 9191
Location: Auburn , WA
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| laegion wrote: |
the only thing about that is that alloy has a 305 not a 350. so it will be totally different. with less cubes he won't need as much airflow at the same rpm as the 350. so he should be able to mod his 305 alot more than you would a 350 before swapping the intake is necessary. |
Agreed. If the TPI setup can put out semi descent numbers on a modded 350...... then |
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Glenn91L98GTA
Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 25
Location: Kamloops, BC Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Twilightoptics wrote: |
Was this an automatic that you aren't taking into account the torque multiplication? HSR does not make more torque on a 350, than an l98. |
Both were stick vehicles and all are based on the same dyno at the same place done roughly on the equivalent days in late October/early November 2003. The stock ZZ4 w/HSR was in a 32 Ford Hot Rod and the ZZ4 TPI w/ ZZ-X cam was in a 60 Vette roadster.
I know people are going to disagree with me on the following points, but I make these points based on actual dyno results where I have been involved in tuning the eprom. And it's not just these two engines, but others, including people I know on TGO.
What I have observed is: below 2,500 rpm other intakes do produce more power - including the Miniram (believe it or not). Above 3,500 rpm other intakes produce more power. TPI outperforms all other intakes between 2,500 & 3,500 rpm.
The below 2,500 rpm was also surprising to me too until I realized why, and it has to do with the resonance of the tune pulses "air waves" inside the runners of TPI. It is optimal between 2,500 & 3,500 rpm and thus outperforms all other intakes. But below 2,500 and above 3,500, the pulses are not optimal and work against each other.
These points are made based on actual observations, not seat-of-the-pants butt-dyno results or opinion. As I am old (50 next year) and tired (still ill), I probably won't discuss this much further. I'm just presenting the facts as I observed them. What people ultimately do with their engine is up to them.
For the record, as I said earlier, I thought the guy with the ZZ4 TPI chose the wrong cam and with a better cam like the LPE 219/219 he would have had better results. But, he too is an older guy (55) and he wanted the lumpy cam sound without having to rev the snot out of his engine. He seldom takes his engine beyond 4,000 rpm, so TPI fit his desire. He's very happy with his combo. It sounds mean (which he wanted) and he never races on the street or strip (which is good - he'd lose badly).
Hell, I just tune them. |
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