Cascade Crew

Kage87Z

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1. To get a driver's license, you either must be in school or graduated from school or 19 years old or older.

2. If in school, you must maintain 3.0 GPA.

Washington State has a roughly 30% drop out rate. We spend tens of millions on failing programs to keep kids in school until they graduate.

This idea might reduce that figure somewhat. The grade requirement will eliminate those kids just mailing it in from being able to drive, as well as guaranteeing the good student discount for insurance.

Comments? This bill hasn't been introduced, but I think I've found a senate sponsor.

I need reasons this idea will NOT work.

Have at it.

Dewey316 · Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject:

I dunno, a 3.0 point GPA, is a B average. The system is designed so that an "average" grade is C, so are only kids who excel at academics, going to be able to drive?

My honest opinion, is it is going to take more than just something like this, the education system needs some major reform. The HOME's in America also need major reform. Without a home life, and parents who push kids to excel, and who place a value on education, there just isn't a reason.

Kage, I respect you a lot, but have you spoken with any teachers about this, or gotten any feedback from the people who deal with kids, day in and day out? My mom is a high school teacher, and we have spend many a dinner conversation speaking about things like this. It is not an easy problem at all, and one that needs huge amounts of attention.

I really think, that ever if a bill like this goes into place, it doesn't solve the problem. Even if a kid gets a 3.0, to get their driving ability, does that alone set them up for success later in life? What really is the goal of education. Is it a number, like a GPA or a SAT score, or should we be equipping young people, with the means to succeed in life, and become functioning and contributing members of society.

--John
(graduated HS with a 1.83 GPA, has not taken a single college course at this point in life.)

One additional idea... why worry about the tens of millions being spent to educate american citizens, and start working on a bill, that protects American's, and stops waisting tax dollars, educating non US citizens, and non English speaking students. I would be very interested in seeing what percentage of ESL students drop out, especially since they cost something like 3 times what it costs to educate an English speaking student.

Just something to think about.

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ADMIN ADDITION.

Normally we don't allow political discussions. I put in my .02, I will let everyone else to. I will let everyone know, I am going to keep a very close eye on the thread, and will lock it if I think there is an argument coming on.

Kage87Z · Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject:

BigDaddyVu · Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject:

what about a competency test??? to see if there mentally and emotionally ready. this bill may pass up on those who can. there is alot of younge drivers out there. book smart or a flunky. its about street smarts (common sence) i've seen alot of succesful yuppies can't drive.

schools don't teach common sence just whats in text. experiencing situations does. amp

Dewey316 · Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject:

Kage,

What is the goal of the bill? Really? Is it to keep kids safe in the car, or is it education. I know you mentioned both in your response, but what is the "main" objective?

I see two different issues. The first being education, the second being drivers safety. I will freely admit, to leaning to the right side of things, and I am never a fan of government making the decisions of who can, and who can't do things. So that is a motivation in what I am saying.

The last time I saw statistics, the Autobahn was among the very safest roads in the world. The number of fatalities per million miles traveled, was far lower than on US interstates. If safety is the goal, maybe we need to go to a drivers education system more like they have in Germany.

If education is the priority. I would talk to the people in the classrooms, who are teaching. They will really give you the most honest input on what really works, and what is wrong. I really have to question, if trying to motivate kids to get a grade for the opportunity to drive, is really the way to fix the problems.

Kage87Z · Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:07 am Post subject:

Xophertony · Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:26 am Post subject:

1. To get a driver's license, you either must be in school or graduated from school or 19 years old or older.
sounds good to me, no problems here.

2. If in school, you must maintain 3.0 GPA.
I don't know. like John said the average grade is a c. make it a c average instead.

John mentioned the HOME needing to change, and i deffinatly agree with him there. however, unless the government starts giving huge tax breaks (or even subsidizing) housholds that have one parent at home full time i do not see a way to change that.

not that this has to do with the bill, but:
i also feel that the driving education system in this country needs to change BIGTIME. i took driver ed and am a reasonably safe driver, but man.... some peoples children.... i think drivers education (which could also be better, atleast the one in public school, the one at my school was a joke) should be mandatory.

Dewey316 · Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:42 am Post subject:

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It always nice to hear what the motivation behind things is. I guess I have to ask the question, of what is going to be done for kids with learning disabilities, will they be held to a different grade standard, for eligibility for driving?

Also, I looked up some stats on drop out rates vs income levels, from the US Department of Education.

2.7 percent for students with a high family income level, compared to 23.9 percent for students with a low family income level.

It also seems that race plays a role in this as well.

7.9 percent for white students, compared to 13.6 percent for black students and 27.5 percent for Hispanic students.

Sure, giving kids some incentive to want to do well in school is needed, we need to do something. I just don't know that something like this, is the best use of a bill that might be looked at. It seems to be, that the real problem is, that family's who are not highly educated (read: minority's and low income levels), don't place the same value on education, and don't pass that on to their kids.

In my opinion, what our education system really needs, is a way of teaching these kids something. Not every kid in our country, is going to be college bound, that is just a fact. What we really need to do, is figure out what we are going to do with the percentage of students who are not college bound, and figure out how we can still educate them, and equip them for the real world.

Just some things to think about. I'm just trying to bring up some points that are jumping out at me. I would be very interested to hear your what your teacher friends comments are. I'm going over to my parents tomorrow, I'll chat with my Mom about it, and repost her thoughts on this.

Dewey316 · Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:47 am Post subject:

Xophertony · Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:09 am Post subject:

QwkTrip · Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:42 am Post subject:

I agree with Dewey that the root of the problem is a breakdown of the family unit. Kids by nature don't have the proper incentive or priorities - they have to be taught these things. And if their own father figures don't reinforce proper behavior then any good morals or behaviors that might be taught at school are not likely to stick. Without proper parental guidance the child is not very likely to be successful as a good upstanding member of the community or as someone in education and business.

It's a problem that breeds on itself. And it begins far before high school. By the time the child reaches high school the problem has festered so much that it reaches the surface and becomes obvious in their behavior and attitude. In most cases it is too late to fix without some type of shock therapy: Military, prison, maybe hitting a personal low, and most of all a personal decision by that individual to change.

The reason these school programs don't work, and the reason future programs won't work, is because they do not address the root of the problem. They keep trying to suppress the symptoms and not tackling the actual problem. Until the family unit in America is restored and we become a better people as a whole, the problem will not go away. But this leads us to the next important question: What is the measure by which we decide we are a good people? Well, that's probably too hot a topic for this forum. But it's a serious matter and also at the root of this problem.

With all that said, I do like the idea of rewarding good behavior in children. There's no reason why a child shouldn't have to earn a driver license. After all, it is a privilege and not a right. Let those who succeed be rewarded early and given more responsibility. Let those who waste opportunity just wait until their peers graduate from high school. I think some states already have programs like this.

BigDaddyVu · Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:39 am Post subject:

I think you shouldn't put out a bill you are making everyone pay more taxes for laws that don't work. education starts at home. we don't rely on govrnt. we have more laws, more taxes, and less freedom. but the only reason we have laws is for the stupid people taking adavantage of the system.

Wolffy · Member Joined: 22 Jan 2004 Posts: 375 Location: Spokane

Kage i commend you for wanting to fix a problem, but as others have stated, the root has to be fixed first & unless people start caring at home, it aint gonna happen.
im not a fan of lets make more laws to make us better people, its a choice we as people need to make. more laws dont make us better, it just means more of us are criminals, like 1/3 our population is a criminal now & some of its for stupid stuff

the BIGGEST employer in the state of WA is the Dept of Corrections.

and this country so needs to pick one age, for kids to become adults, at 18 you can be handed a full auto weapon or the keys to a tank, but you cant buy a handgun or drink till your 21

i seriously think we need one age to become an adult, with all the rights & responsiblites that come with it

Wolffy

Kage87Z · Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:50 am Post subject:

OK... so far, input here is causing me to lean in the direction of a c average.

Just thought you'd want to know... the positions you're presenting here are compelling and sensible... and they are making a difference.

I will be responding to all about your concerns and my methodology later today (R/L has reared it's ugly head and I have to go deal with it.)

Please keep your comments coming... and thanks!

QwkTrip · Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject:

I'll tell you what, Kage about 20 years ago my family became so disgusted with the public school system that they pulled me out. I was home schooled from 7th grade until college. My school day was so much more productive that I could finish in 3 hours what took the public school 7 hours - and with no homework. I finished high school in 3 years and began attending college courses when I was 16. I never did have a high school diploma because I didn't attend an accredited school. I had to get a GED instead. Because of the GED I had to attend a community college. No 4 year college would touch me. But after a year of community college I could transfer wherever I wanted. My point is even if you get the kids to stay in school it may not result in much. The schools are ineffective any longer and have been for quite some time. Better schools will create their own programs to retain kids and solve their own problems. Here's some things I would do to get better schools if I were king of the world. Laughing

(1) Money should be diverted from failing or less rewarding social programs to increase teachers' wages - a lot (there is no reason to raise taxes). But only on a condition that the teachers union is disbanded (needed to accomplish item 3 below). Higher wages will increase competition for the jobs and bring in more talent. Part of the wages should be incentive pay based on class performance. (16% of my pay is incentive based.) Make wages competitive enough to draw in professionals from business and industry. That's basically what colleges do to ensure they have a good talent pool.

(2) Restructure education requirements. The standards are too low and we waste too much time on social education. Our children are in competition with the world and the U.S. has everything to lose. Monitor a typical school day and you'll find that most the day is idle time or not spent on proper priorities.

(3) Flush out the teachers and leadership perpetuating the problem. Our schools are dominated by people who have some things exactly the way they want. Many of them are incompetent. The rest of the people are talented but hampered by the other groups. Over the last 50 years our education system has been slowly dominated by the liberal leftists. Not 100% bad, but they definitely have contributed heavily to the poor state of affairs today. It is too easy for the status quo to be maintained in a government bureaucracy. That's why the solution is to privatize the school systems and get rid of the union. The union sets up a hierarchy that rewards time in service more than performance. It's counter productive to these goals. Once you reward performance, success will breed on itself. Some will lose and some will win. Let those who know how to win take over the other schools.

It's really very simple. There are many many talented people out there with better ideas than you or I. Put those people in a framework where they can thrive and they will fix the school systems for you.

Xophertony · Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:59 am Post subject:

qwiktrip, i agree with you on the way our school systems are. its a disgracefull waste of money. unfortunatly an alternative to the way it is now (be it a total overhaul or privitization) is beyond the scope of this thread.

there is a book you should read called "Jennifer Government". it is a future/sci-fi novel about a world where our corporate culture has been developing unchecked by government. the schools are private, the police are private etc... the book realy makes you take another look at the direction we may be going. in addition to that the story is fantastic. i recomend it to everyone.