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Ford 460 question

 
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Ford 460 question Reply with quote

Aaron, Paul.. I need a few more ideas here. I have a 97 ford f350 460 efi. Just put a motor in because it broke the rings off of one of the pistons. I get this thing together and of course I have multiple other issues. Had a gray TFI module installed setting an IDM code instead of the black module. So I replaced that and got rid of the code. Bad o2 sensor, bad tuneup parts etc..

So now I have this thing mostly straightened out, no codes being set at all, and O2 sensors aren't staying lean or rich. BUT it pings like a bastard. Basically all the time. Even if you shift down to take the load off. Re-checked firing order, have tried backing off the timing in case balancer has slipped but by the time you get rid of the ping theres no power whatsoever. Tried the other module just in case.. no difference.

I'm thinking this is probably what broke the piston in the last motor. The owner was upset when it went and ran this thing til it completely quit. So it's been run awhile with oil pumping straight into the intake.

Tomorrow I'm going to take the cat loose and try it. Hopefully I can hear over the noise that makes. I'll also be going over the EGR system, though it has an dpfe sensor and its not setting a code. Plus it passes the KOER tests.

Any other ideas? PCM maybe.. This was a spendy job and I need to get it done and billed before the boss gets upset.
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aaron_sK
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is the shaft play in the distributor? Assuming you reused the old one I'd say it's the most likely culprit.

How is the fuel pressure when you've got it loaded up? Do the plugs look lean after the test drive?

IME the EGR systems on Ford trucks fail the other way (too much flow, causing a stumble) but it's worth a look.

Another thing to check is that the cam is installed correctly. All the 460 EFI trucks had the cam in straight-up, but the older carb trucks had it in 4* (or more) retarded. I know it's not very likely that the balancer is slipped and the cam is also retarded, but I'm running low on ideas. Laughing
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fiveoformula
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Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 1799
Location: OR

1988 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the owner install a chip? I know thats a long shot.... But I have a 4 liter ford V6 that pinged like there was no tomorrow even with premium fuel, then I removed the piggy-back superchip and no more ping even with cheap gas.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes to the chip. I actually found that shortly before you posted. But no, it didn't help anyway.

Disconnected the cat convertor, no good. EGR system functions fine and I can control it from the scan tool. Scoped PIP and SPOUT. PIP looks like a good pattern and nice and stable, but spout is scrolling. So I think the distributor is OK. Distributor shaft is tight in all directions. Fuel pressure is over 40 while on the throttle and 35 or so at idle. O2s and fuel trims look normal so don't think its going lean. Balancer seems to be on. Odd thing is that by the time you back off the timing enough to get rid of the ping there's absolutely no power. No vacuum leaks and doesn't seem to have an internal vacuum leak either.

I actually found one of the ecm pins bent over. Thought AHA! but didn't make a difference. Funny no codes before or after fixing the pin.

Graphed TPS and its smooth up and down the scale. Both air and coolant temps read correctly. Cleaned MAF but may try another. Though if that was far off I'd think the o2s and fuel trims would show it.

Took the owner for a ride today and he says it pinged before but never like this. Friend of mine too so I trust his word.

I'm at either the ecm, which does show signs of moisture, or some mechanical issue. Really wondering about mechanical issue since it apparently changed with the long block. Motor was run on a sim test machine. Showed 200psi of compression on their test.

There's some error showing between NGK and Autolite on their plugs. Had NGK's in it. Correct by app but they cross to an autolite 25. By app the catalog says autolite 23s.. So I put in the colder 23s.. no change. Any other ideas?
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aaron_sK
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have any specs on the motor itself? Is it a stock replacement from Jasper or something?
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stock replacement from S&J.
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aaron_sK
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Google yielded this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020806143543/http://www.snapon.com/newsletter/sonews_08_2002.asp#tech

...but you say it's scoping normal with the spout in.

Have you pulled the cover off of the ECM? I have seen EEC-IV units pop caps before.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya.. looked at the caps too. Actually the PIP is normal I'm not so sure bout the spout. Spout is scrolling. All the pics of waveforms i've seen show the pip and spout aligning, not having one scrolling.
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aaron_sK
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... should be easy enough to test by pulling the spout connector out with the scope on it.

Time to sneak into the shop over the long weekend? Laughing
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotta work friday. Then gotta work monday.. then i'm off lol
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure I allready did that anyway.. and still had the scrolling spout. After talking with Sam tonight I'm really wondering about something mechanical. Cam timing as you said earlier perhaps.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was a huge pita but finally got it. After checking everything possible, scoping the dizzy, checking total advance, checking for magnetism etc. It still ended up being the dizzy. S&j had me check total at 2k and it was only 25 vs max of 38. But then I pulled the dizzy anyway. The gear had been redrilled 3x so someone has had some issues before. Went ahead and changed it and all is normal.
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aaron_sK
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good deal, man. I'm glad you didn't have to pull a brand new motor apart. Laughing
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Twilightoptics
Hardcore (12sec Club)


Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 9191
Location: Auburn , WA

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow I hate ghetto fixes. Drilled 3 times! Oi vey
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