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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:44 am Post subject: |
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When trying to put on the crank damper/pulley I noticed the engine had a grab at the same point every time I turned it over. I pulled off the oil pan and found my #1 rod bolt rubbing the oil pan right in the bump-out that is supposed to prevent that. Apparently this happens sometimes with the 427 crank kits. I removed the pan and clearanced the pan with a die grinder, cleaned it, and put it back on the engine. No more problem.
So putting on the crank damper is a problem in and of itself, too. The damper is a press fit onto the crank. The M16 bolt that goes in the end of the crank will grab a thread or two and people think they can use it to pull-in the damper. DON'T DO IT!!!! The likely outcome is that the threads inside the crank will strip out and you'll ruin the crank. You need a proper damper installation tool. Again, Kent-Moore makes these but it is expensive. I made my own tool by buying some M16 all-thread, 4 nuts and 2 fender washers. Put grease on the thread that will insert into the crank, and put grease between the two washers so everything slips easy. Washers go against the damper. Two nuts jammed together will push in the damper, and two more nuts jammed together give you something to turn with a wrench. Damper will go on nice and easy until the washers bottom against the crank.
The factory bolt that holds the damper is torque to yield so it cannot be re-used. It gets tightened in three stages to an insane amount. Basically, good luck tightening at home with common hand tools. I used an ARP bolt that is re-usable and torque to "only" 235 lb-ft. Scoggin Dickey sells these cheaper than ARP. They aren't called ARP, but they are ARP. I had to call ARP to get the torque spec. If you have a flexplate you can hold the engine in place by putting a rod through the holes in the flex plate and jamming it against the engine. If you have a flywheel then you have to hold it somehow. I bought Kent-Moore tool (J-42386) that bolts to the starter mounting pad and interlocks with the flywheel ring gear. Not cheap, but it stores in my toolbox easy and I can use it with the engine in the car.
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:47 am Post subject: |
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Started wiring conversion. Bought a 2001 engine harness and completely dismantled it, even de-pinning from PCM connectors. Everything seemed a little challenging before I tore down the harness. 5 hours later it's all tidy on the table and makes a lot more sense now. Very worthwhile activity in my mind. Every last wire is labeled, and labeled twice just in case one smudges out or something.
I'm pretty much mentally prepared that I will need to extend the harness to put the PCM in a tidy location, but I'm hoping that I don't have to. I'm starting to lay out the wires on my engine and I'm seeing that the wires are longer than they appeared in the original harness. Wondering if I can mount the PCM inside the passenger side fender and minimize the number of wires that have to be extended. We'll see what happens.
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:16 am Post subject: |
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FAST intake... where do I begin?
In my parts collecting I happen to have both an LS3 and FAST 102 LSXR intake. I got the FAST second-hand but new in the box for a great price. Somebody had put a piece of sandpaper to two spots and decided to not finish the job. Who cares! Doesn't change the performance. I got the LS3 intake off ebay, complete with injectors and fuel rail, for $250. Another score.
Fact is the LS3 intake is awesome. And some people debate if the FAST is even better. But after talking to a few engine builders I think the FAST really will make some difference on a big cube engine like mine. And considering I have a healthy cam and manual transmission I can probably take advantage of the FAST for another ~20 HP at the wheels. So I dove in and bought injectors and Nick Williams 102mm throttle body thinking I was going to use the FAST intake with LS3 fuel rail. HA! Whatever.
Turns out FAST made an intake that doesn't work properly with stock fuel rails. LS1 height injectors are too tall and move the fuel rail off center so it won't line up with the mounting points, and nobody makes offset spacers. LS3 injectors are too short and need an intermediate spacer to reach the fuel rail. Problem is the FAST spacer goes under the injector which lifts the injector up something like 1/2 inch. That means the injector nozzle is no longer in the air stream and is lifted inside the bore of the manifold. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that will create fuel distribution problems and mess with tuning. FAST swears it is fine. I talked to Fuel Injection Connection and they've done testing and can confirm fuel does collect on the walls and drips uncontrolled into the air stream. They've told FAST this but FAST doesn't seem to believe. Fuel Injection Connection sells a spacer that goes on top of the injector to prevent this issue. I could have used it but that is now two o-ring seals on the high pressure side of the injector, and that's two opportunities for leaks. Not my style. So I went for the taller injectors.
I eventually called Nasty Performance and turns out they make a billet fuel rail just for the FAST intake and longer LS1 type injectors. So that's what I did. They arrived and I was really pleased to find out they are anodized black. I'm getting black AN fittings and black hose so it all blends. I'm not sure I would have gone FAST 102 if I knew what was needed to make it work. But I ordered my injectors before I knew about the fuel rail problem and those injectors don't fit an LS3 intake.
Speaking of injectors, I got a set of 50 lb/hr at 3 bar. They are very quick response so I can trim the idle, and I got some EV14 top hats so I don't have to change my harness.
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Knock sensors. Obviously for LS1 guys you just use the LS1 sensor and move on. But I have a Gen IV block, partly because that's the deal that came along when I needed it, and because it is stronger block than Gen III 6.0L. But Gen IV blocks don't have knock sensors in the valley - it's on the side of the block. And the LS2 sensor that goes in that location is a different type of sensor and smaller thread size than LS1 sensor.
LS1 knock sensor is a broadband type and LS2 knock sensor is a flat response type and they are not interchangeable. The other issue is that knock sensors are finely tuned by application and location on block. Even changing from aluminum block to iron block changes the parameters. Here are the options I've found:
1. Many people just eliminate the knock sensor in the tune. I think that's kind of stupid. It is there to protect your engine from serious damage.
2. Drill and tap the LS2 holes for larger thread size of LS1 knock sensor. As far as I can tell this kind of works but reduces the effectiveness of the knock sensors. In other words, it won't pull back timing as readily. Maybe not a bad thing since LS1 knock sensors are overactive anyway?
3. Use a lathe to turn down the LS1 knock sensor for M8 thread. Same thing as above but you're modifying the sensor instead of the block. Seems bass-ackwards to me.
4. Use empty motor mount hole in side of block. Has same thread as LS1 knock sensor. I don't like this because knock sensors are very sensitive to tuning and that is NOT a location designed for knock sensor. This is lazy approach because there is already a hole for knock sensor, you just have to resize it.
5. Use the LS2 knock sensors and reconfigure the LS1 PCM. This can be done with EFI Live by changing the knock sensor type, and changing some pinouts on the PCM. Most people do not know about this option and don't know the LS1 PCM has a setting for flat compensated knock sensor. Almost everybody I've found that tried this was unsuccessful to get the engine running right, not because the PCM or sensor is bad but because they can't find a knock sensor data table that works. However, it seems some people in Australia do this and I found this guy in the U.S. that does it. http://www.pcmcalibrators.net/
Honestly, I would do option 5 if I just had more confidence it would work well. But I'm not that adventurous so I'll probably do option 2 because it is common and does work for the most part. If you want to explore option 5 for yourself then start by looking at this thread. Post #25 has an explanation how knock sensors work. http://ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagnostics-tuning/1431323-knock-sensor-ls2-block-ls1-computer.html |
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:11 am Post subject: |
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Nearly caught up now. I've done some stuff with fuel system but I'll wait until I have a more complete story to share.
aaron_sK wrote: | ^ Greatest photograph ever ^ |
I know. I'm handsome as hell. |
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Dewey316 The Lama
Joined: 08 Jan 2004 Posts: 7295 Location: Bringing the tech
1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:41 am Post subject: |
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Interesting on the knock sensor. No truck sensor options that will work, or are they all LS2 style in their output?
Any reason your running an LS1 PCM, not an LS2, that would seem to solve the issue, you end up with the LS2 PCM and LS2 knock sensor, or possibly the Truck stuff, with the proper knock sensor for the block? |
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Good point. I forgot to mention the LS2 PCM. I think the challenge is how to convert from drive by wire to drive by cable. Haven't spent time figuring that out yet, but it is an option worth looking in to. I think it might be doable because the drive by wire has a module between PCM and throttle body. If you can deliver the signal that the PCM is looking for then it would work. Need to look into that.
Or you could install the electronic gas pedal but I don't want the hassle. And I already bought my fancy throttle body with cable drive. |
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Dewey316 The Lama
Joined: 08 Jan 2004 Posts: 7295 Location: Bringing the tech
1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Interesting, so there is actually feedback from the TBW stuff to the PCM, not just a controller and then a TPS to give the PCM feedback on the throttle position?
Maybe I'll start digging into some research on how the GM stuff works. |
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Ordered up a complete stainless exhaust today from Hawks Third Gen. I've always been one of those people with the jaw drop when I see the price on that kit, but now that I've actually had to sit down and understand my options I did choose the Hawks kit.
Remember, I'm a bolt-in solution guy. I don't make exhaust, don't want to make exhaust, don't have the tools to make exhaust. I wanted the 2" primary LSx headers anyway so $1200 of that can be disregarded. Then consider that a comparable Magnaflow catback is $600, and I'd have at least $350 into a Y-pipe that has to be fabricated. Well, that's a good $2150 in exhaust and I had to do extra work to make the Y-pipe. Now for $150 extra I can have the Hawks kit with v-band clamps (the clamps are worth that much) and it slips in place without drama, and I don't have to make anything. Done deal.
Saving money is the reward for having the skills, tools, and time. For somebody like me who wants a bolt-in solution the price actually turned out to be competitive when comparing to other stainless alternatives. And honestly, when I spend an hour at work earning money it is worth more than anything I can save doing an hour of labor on my exhaust system. |
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aaron_sK Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 8834 Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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QwkTrip wrote: | Thanks, Aaron for the help! |
QwkTrip wrote: | The likely outcome is that the threads inside the crank will strip out and you'll ruin the crank. |
Don't know if this is a problem peculiar to the LSJuan but I've been using the bolt to press on dampeners for years without issue. Usually with an impact too.
On the knock sensor front I would go with door #2. Bear in mind that for the previous 80 or 90 years the standard way to check for knock was to find a big hill get it in high gear and then stand on it.
You may find a deadened knock sensor to your advantage anyway with those longtubes. I had an issue on my IROC with my exhaust setting it off. |
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Stripping the crank is likely an LS thing. The bolt just barely grabs thread when the damper is getting tight. I wouldn't have known but I started noticing horror stories on LS1tech.com. Good thing I move slow or I might have been one of those stories. |
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Info for LSx swaps is scattered all over the place so I added some of the better bookmarks I've kept. See post #1. I'll keep adding to it as I go. If you have an excellent link to share then PM me and I'll update it. |
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iansane Member
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 5740 Location: Bothell
1991 Pontiac Trans Am
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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QwkTrip wrote: | Any LS swapper will have to either modify the stock K-member or put in a tubular K-member designed for LS swap. |
I did neither... It's close, like REAL close but with poly mounts I don't contact. _________________
Quote: | Sometimes I actually think I'm slightly retarded in the mouth. |
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Then you don't have air conditioning, correct? |
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aaron_sK Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 8834 Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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No roof = hell of air conditioning. |
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iansane Member
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 5740 Location: Bothell
1991 Pontiac Trans Am
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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QwkTrip wrote: | Then you don't have air conditioning, correct? |
Whoops, I thought you were referring to the chunk everyone takes out of the back of the kmember for oilpan clearance.
Correct sir! No A/C on this bird, I might try to get it back after the turbo install if it'll fit below the header. _________________
Quote: | Sometimes I actually think I'm slightly retarded in the mouth. |
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IROCDave Member
Joined: 16 Jan 2010 Posts: 957 Location: Snohomish WA
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Nice job telling the history of the bird. I wa expecting to see a video of it running though..
The issues you had with the shipping company brought back memories of picking up my first ZZ4 shortblock. When I was walking up to the dock to pick up the shortblock I noticed a busted up crate on the dock. As I got closer I saw the bottom of the crate was crushed and the crank of my engine was resting on concrete. The trucking company didnt understand why I wouldnt sign for it and why I was pissed off. The manager said " well, it's metal, it'll be fine".
I have learned to hate truck drivers. You should see the conditions of some of the stuff that shows up on jobsites and the attitude the drivers have. I have had them show up at 7:00pm after the site had been closed for 3 hours with a load that took 2 hours to offload becuase it was scattered all over their trailer. If the driver could, he would dump your stuff on the ground and drive off. |
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QwkTrip 11sec Club
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 3942 Location: Peoria, IL
1989 Pontiac Firebird
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Test fitted spark plug boots with the headers and found #3 fouling hard against the header tube, and #5 just touching the tube. I've seen pictures of the spark plug boot laying on #3 header tube with LS1 engines, but that problem seems even worse with my LS3 heads. I called MSD to look into options and it turns out the spark plug wires I have (part number 32823) are designed so that the boot at the plug can be bent up to 90 degrees just behind the MSD logo. Nice! I'll wait until I get the larger headers and bend the boots for a custom fit.
One maddening thing is I put a boot on one of the truck coils and it didn't feel right so I pulled it off and a piece of the truck coil came with it! I was so annoyed! Luckily, I found a set of brand new coils from a 2011 6.2L truck. So now instead of some dirty coils with a bit of rust I'll have spanking new coils, harness, and bracket.
This problem made me look a bit into coil options. What I found is that LS1 coils are the weakest. The LS2/LS3/LS7/LQ4/LQ9 coils are a big jump up in spark energy and have been shown to provide as high as 6-9 HP extra at the wheels. Detail fanatics can shorten the dwell time a tad if using the hotter coils but most people don't. Coil packs have their own little harness and mounting bracket. LS1 coil harness connector has round pins and others have flat pins, so you can't just swap coils. You need to carry over the coil harness too. Fortunately, all the coil harnesses plug into the F body engine harness. There is a third coil type with a heat sink that is even more desirable but the jump in performance is only slight compared to LS2. Just tossing the LS1 coils is the biggest jump in performance. The heat sink coil can be identified by the round body and is mostly found in Express vans with 6.0L engines.
The truck coil bracket sits higher on the valve cover and is needed to clear the 3rd gen air conditioning box on the firewall. Some people will use the F body coil bracket on driver side to make fuel line routing easier. I'll be using truck brackets on both sides.
Driver side #3 bent hard against tube. #5 touching tube. Hawks 1-3/4" headers.
Passenger side fits beautifully.
Broken coil.
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aaron_sK Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 8834 Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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What the heck are you doing with straight plug boots on an engine with headers? Is this a John build?
Need some 90* or maybe 135*. |
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